#: 4095 S1/General
13-May-89 19:02:51
Sb: #San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Ed Warren 71251,2705
To: ALL
 
Regarding the SP wreck at the base of Cajon Pass in San Bernardino, Cal. How
can a freight train "lose" its brakes? The only ways I can think of are
if someone closes an angle cock near the head-end after the brakes have
released; OR in a long down grade with NO operable dynamic and no way to
pressurize the train without releasing the brakes--bringing the brake pipe
pressure down to zero. The article I read said they knew the brakes had
already failed when they were at the summit of Cajon Pass. What possible
reason could the brakes have "failed?"
 
* Replies: 4111, 4112
 
#: 4111 S1/General
14-May-89 01:44:28
Sb: #4095-San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Keir Jones 71160,2217
To: Ed Warren 71251,2705 (X)
 
The report I heard today said there was heavy scoring from hard braking on
the wheels of the lead engine. No word yet about the others or the
remainder of the train. NTSB news conference this evening. I'll post any real
information.
 
...Keir
 
#: 4112 S1/General
14-May-89 02:13:07
Sb: #4095-#San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Keir Jones 71160,2217
To: Ed Warren 71251,2705 (X)
 
The NTSB release, based on data recorders and on-site observation, stated
that the brakes were working normally 10 1/2 miles before the crash. 8
miles before the crash the brakes were put into "emergency." The brakes were
still hot to the touch this afternoon. They are currently investigating the
possibility of overloading. The specified tonnage would fill each car approx.
2/3 full, but some reports from witnesses (whether to the loading, en route,
or at the crash was unstated) indicate that the load was above the sides of
the cars. This is a preliminary report and is subject to revision as more
information becomes available.
 
...Keir
 
* Reply: 4113
 
#: 4113 S1/General
14-May-89 02:39:55
Sb: #4112-#San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Dorr Altizer, Sysop 76702,402
To: Keir Jones 71160,2217 (X)
 
Thanx for the information, Keir. Did the NTSB say how long the investigation
might take? This particular wreck has gotten a lot of the wrong kind of
publicity for the SP, and those of us who are SP freaks are definitely
interested.
 
Everything on a Flanged Wheel!
 
Dorr
 
* Reply: 4129
 
#: 4129 S1/General
14-May-89 16:37:28
Sb: #4113-San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Keir Jones 71160,2217
To: Dorr Altizer, Sysop 76702,402 (X)
 
They're not sure how long, but it should be at least another month. The news
reports I've heard have been talking about SP's safety record, and relaying
NTSB's statement that SP has a good overall record. They're talking as if
it's simply the kind of horrible accident that can happen to anyone. One
reporter compared it to houses next to a freeway or under an aircraft
approach path. Even the people in the neighborhood seem to regard it as a
tragic accident rather than the inevitable result of ongoing negligence.
Nobody responsible has even implied ongoing negligence.
 
...Keir
 
#: 4158 S1/General
15-May-89 02:56:59
Sb: #4113-San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Keir Jones 71160,2217
To: Dorr Altizer, Sysop 76702,402 (X)
 
More news this evening (Sunday). This sounds like a red herring, but the NTSB
announced the results of its investigation into the safety records of the
train crew.  Engineer Holland was cited for excessive speed March 31, 1986,
and was cited for failure to properly connect the brake lines between
multiple-unit locomotives February 13, 1988.  Brakeman Reese was cited for
failure to take action regarding excessive speed. (No date given)  None of
these citations involved accidents. On the highway a record like that would
qualify a person for good-driver discounts.  A third data recorder was also
recovered today, but the information has not yet been released. Investigation
into the possibility of mechanical failure is continuing.  Engineer Holland
is suffering from a collapsed lung, and took a turn for the worse today. His
condition is listed as critical.
 
...Keir
 
#: 4212 S1/General
17-May-89 03:07:56
Sb: #4113-#San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Keir Jones 71160,2217
To: Dorr Altizer, Sysop 76702,402 (X)
 
The latest from NTSB is that 2 of the 5 units had inoperative dynamic brakes.
SP came in for praise from the City Council and City Attorney today. It seems
SP made an offer that was better than they expected to achieve in court.
SP is buying the 11 houses and making a greenbelt out of the area. The city
will maintain the landscaping. SP also took full responsibility for the
crash, and for any future accidents which could occur at the same location.
The Red Cross shelter was unnecessary, as SP provided hotel accomodations for
those rendered temporarily homeless, and is making an effort to compensate
them for their losses.  That kind of corporate action makes me proud to
live in SP territory.
 
...Keir
 
* Reply: 4213
 
#: 4213 S1/General
17-May-89 03:34:52
Sb: #4212-San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Dorr Altizer, Sysop 76702,402
To: Keir Jones 71160,2217
 
Sounds like one of the better endings to what is usually a long story of
court battles, media hype, etc.  Maybe SP is trying to return to the days
when the public relations department had offices above the basement. Or maybe
their new boss has made some changes, behind the scenes.  None of the news
will make it on national television, tho, since it's not bad news.  Sigh.  Do
you know if any FRA people were involved in the settlement?  Or did SP
negotiate with the city directly?
 
Everything on a Flanged Wheel!
 
Dorr
 
#: 4282 S1/General
21-May-89 01:28:53
Sb: #4256-#San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Keir Jones 71160,2217
To: Keir Jones 71160,2217 (X)
 
NTSB released preliminary findings today. The train was overloaded by 2600
tons. The amount of potash was estimated during loading. Nothing was actually
weighed or measured, and they have apparently scraped up a lot more than the
train was supposed to be carrying.
 
...Keir
 
* Reply: 4306
 
#: 4306 S1/General
23-May-89 01:25:37
Sb: #4282-San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Robert I. Wright 74776,374
To: Keir Jones 71160,2217
 
Perhaps you can answer some questions about the wreck for me. It is puzzling
why the train lost it's brakes and was unable to stop. I understand that the
dynamic brakes were inoperative on two of the locomotives, but wouldn't there
be enough reserve braking power to stop the train?  Any what about the air
brakes?  It is my understanding that every car has a set of air powered shoe
brakes that are more than sufficient to stop each individual car, even if it
is fully loaded, and that these brakes can be applied along the length of the
train by the engineer.  Are these the brakes that are refered to as
"emergency brakes" by the media?  Even if it was overloaded, I do not see
what could have gone wrong.  Were both braking systems inoperative or do I
have some misunderstanding of the braking systems on trains? (Feel free to
instruct, what I have laid out here is about the limit of my understanding).
 
#: 4325 S1/General
24-May-89 02:25:18
Sb: #4306-San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Keir Jones 71160,2217
To: Robert I. Wright 74776,374 (X)
 
According to NTSB, the train was severely overloaded. This can cause the
brakes to fade and lose their effectiveness, even in an emergency application. The air brakes were on hard enough to score the wheels, but 
excess weight was just too much. The dynamic brakes are simply a system for
using the traction motors to help slow a train.  They are actually an
auxiliary system, and not all locomotives are so equipped (although most
are.)  On level ground, or properly loaded, the brakes would have been quite
adequate.  Overloaded, downhill, adequate brakes probably don't exist.
 
...Keir
 
#: 4360 S1/General
26-May-89 02:51:10
Sb: #4347-San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Keir Jones 71160,2217
To: Robert I. Wright 74776,374
 
I don't know the exact grade, but Cajon Pass into LA is indeed steep.  The
highway is a great spot for runaways (and one joker who was cited for 70+
mph on a skateboard).  BTW, the wreck location had another disaster today. A
Cal-Neva gasoline pipeline ruptured at the wreck site.  It had been inspected
after removal of the wreckage and was brought back to full pressure today. It
sprayed flaming unleaded over the homes around the wreck site.
 
..Keir
 
#: 4383 S1/General
27-May-89 02:51:15
Sb: #4347-#San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Dennis Larson 75555,705
To: Robert I. Wright 74776,374 (X)
 
Actually, on mountain grades the safety factor is reduced greatly in trucks,
trains and automobiles.  The problem is that gravity is always pulling
constantly.  Truckers have highway warning signs in these areas so they won't
overheat their brakes.  Have tagged along with Rio Grande brakeman on the
hilly CZ route and they are conducting running air brake test all the time. I
suspect before the beginning of a long down grade.  Next time when driving
drag on your brakes, hold down on the gas pedal.  Your brakes will be gone
inside of a minute or two.  Consider a train going downgrade for miles and
miles.  A leaky train line which could mean lower braking power, overloaded
cars, higher than normal speed all rolled into one would make for one big
wreck.
 
* Reply: 4395
 
#: 4395 S1/General
28-May-89 04:21:55
Sb: #4383-San Berdoo Wreck--How?
Fm: Robert I. Wright 74776,374
To: Dennis Larson 75555,705 (X)
 
I know what you mean about automobile brakes.  They really do go quickly if
you strain them severely.  I always pump my brakes on a downgrade and use
lower gears.  If I did not, I think there would be trouble.  It seems the
combination of factors really did them in.
 
END